Running Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion on the same computer, but on different drives.
Hi Mike,
I thought I would just let you know how things are regarding my plan to install Mountain Lion.
I have got everything in place and I am waiting for Apple to take out some of the initial bugs before downloading. I believe there is a 10.8.1 already.
It is looking good and I see it as a much better OS than Lion.
I have my Mac mini running OSX 10.6.8 on the internal HD with 94 GB out of 160 free. It runs a scheduled backup using Time Machine and a partitioned volume on a 1 TB external drive, 785 GB with 394 free.
The external drive has two other volumes partitioned, one for "Mini cloned startup disk", 107 GB with 45 free.
The last volume partitioned on the external drive is the iBook cloned startup drive, also 107 GB, but with 80 free.
I agonized a lot about restructuring to accommodate Mountain Lion, but I bit the bullet and bought another 1TB external drive, also an OWC Mercury "On-the-go Pro like the existing one, except Hitachi made the one I just bought, whereas Toshiba made the one I bought last year. I don't suppose it makes any difference.
I erased and reformatted the new one, even though it came pre formatted for the Mac, but only because I created 4 partitions, a 200GB, a 400 GB, a 200 GB and another 200 GB.
I cloned the Snow Leopard using CCC onto the first 200 GB partition and then ran the computer a few times from the new disk. It may well have been slower, but not so much that it was readily noticeable. I did that to convince myself that I can install Mountain Lion onto the second external drive and run things from there if I want to. For now anyway, I shall have Snow Leopard and all my "defunct" software intact and ready for use at any time at a click or two. using System Preferences/Startup Disk.
I will have the 400 GB partition for backing up Mountain Lion once the dust settles using CCC.
I have two spare volumes that may one day come in handy for something. :- )
Mike, does that sound like a workable plan to you?
I have a question also. Can I go into "backups.backupdb" and just delete folders I choose or should I stick to entering Time machine and delete using the "action" button?
I notice that action button works a funny way. Select items for deletion in a backed-up folder and delete the "selected items". I thought that the folders that were selected were the only folders to get deleted, but beware, every single folder with the same name as the selected one gets deleted from today all the way back to whenever.
If you selected 4 items for deletion on a given date and you then open the action button, you are faced with "Delete all backups of 4 items." It means what it says. The first time I used it I thought, without thinking (if that is possible), that just the highlighted folders would be deleted, but that is not "all backups", as I quickly found out. As it happened no harm was done
So one shouldn't delete the Users folder, for example, because if you do all your backups, that is ALL of them throughout the Time Line are deleted.
Same goes for the operating system files, folders and directories. Delete one Application folder and you will delete every application backed-up.
Then there is the other twist. One choice on the Action Button is "Delete backup". That means everything for the date being visited, whether you have selected items or not. So everything for August 4, 2011, for example, if that is where you are at, will be deleted.
Maybe this information will be found useful by some and maybe save an embarrassing loss!
Is it possible to just delete certain documents on a specific date, without deleting every backup on every date for those documents? I am just curious.
Also, Like I asked above, can I delete by entering "backups.backupdb" and trashing items that way. It sounds like a highly irregular way of doing something, like removing a flash drive by just pulling it out of its socket without doing the desktop protocol first.
One last question. I would like to switch from Time Machine to CCC for backing up my daily items when running Snow Leopard. I have been using Time Machine for the last 10 months.
What happens to the backups in "backups.backupdb"? How do I restore things from that when Time machine is no longer running?
Maybe I am stuck with Time machine for now?
Gareth
Thu Aug 2, 2012
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Support Staff 2 Posted by Mike Bombich on 03 Aug, 2012 01:23 AM
Yes, that sounds like a good setup.
I have to defer the Time Machine questions to Apple... I don't even use Time Machine, so I'm the last person to give advice on it.
I'll contradict myself by taking a stab at this one. I don't think that Time Machine has to be "On" in System Preferences in order for you to use the Time Machine application to restore files from a TM backup. I think the backup just lies dormant, not getting added to, but all of your past backups are still accessible.
Mike
3 Posted by gilli2 on 03 Aug, 2012 06:11 PM
Thanks Mike. If you don't mind, there is just one other thing and there is no pressing need on my part for an answer. When you have some free time will be just fine. I am indebted enough to you as it is for all the help and advice you have given me.
I understand that Mountain Lion
down-loads into my Applications Folder on my Mac mini running Snow Leopard. If I do nothing it installs Mountain Lion over Snow Leopard keeping my 3rd party apps and docs intact and then it (the installer) disappears.
I want to do a clean install of Mountain Lion on my new 1
TB disk, thus I shall remove the Mountain Lion installer from the Applications Folder before it starts to install.
I will then start the installation, but make sure I get the choice of where to install. I shall select the new 1
TB external drive and do a clean install over the cloned Snow Leopard I have there on Volume A.
The existing current 1
TB external Drive has a volume containing the Time Machine backups for the last year, "Mini scheduled backups", and it takes up about 390 GB and has about 390 GB of free space.
I thought of using that free space to start the backup of Mountain Lion. Thus it is backing up onto a "separate" disk. I shall stop Time machine at that point.
Later, I shall get rid of the current backed up files on
backkups.backupdb by saving onto DVDs and trashing the rest, which will leave Mountain Lion backing up onto the space that Time Machine had, i.e. 390 GB + 390 GB for a total of 780 GB (more or less), a ton of space.
Snow Leopard, still on my internal Macintosh HD, can back up onto the 400 GB Volume B on the new 1 TB external drive using CCC. It is free.
I can, as you suggested in the past, control the size of the growing backed up material when I backup using CCC, by using methods set out in the CCC Help section. Thus 400 GB should be plenty of space and if it gets crowded I can wean things back.
I will clone Mountain Lion so that all my computer operating systems (2 for Mac mini, Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion, and 1 for iBook, Leopard) will each have a bootable clone and each backup (3) will use CCC and thus also be bootable.
Talk about fail safe! But there may be times when we are very glad that we followed the simple procedures that run themselves should there be a disaster of one kind or another. Now all I need is a backup for me! Do you have anything suitable, Mike, in your vast inventory you call CCC? :- )
Support Staff 4 Posted by Mike Bombich on 18 Aug, 2012 03:44 AM
Hi Gareth:
Sorry for the delay, finally catching my breath (on a Friday night :-). Your outlined procedure sounds just fine, I hope you've already carried it out and haven't waited on me!
Ha! If I could have cloned myself, I would have done that years ago ;-) It's actually ironic that I have an identical twin. Unfortunately he's not very useful for writing software!
Mike
5 Posted by gilli2 on 18 Aug, 2012 05:47 PM
Hi Mike,
Many thanks indeed for answering my email and I am truly aware of how busy you are. It's not a problem for me that you answer now.
I have run test situations successfully and I am glad you support my proposals to incorporate Mountain Lion into my home network. However, I am still a worried at some of the things I read about, especially in the comments sections, issues that are arising almost on a daily basis, like Safari, issues around removing "save-as" and various apps crashing.
Now, if I run Mountain Lion OS I can only run apps bought at the App store or "approved" by Apple. So now they are telling me how to run my life and what I can and can't buy. I have a huge amount of effort and work invested in one photo editing client that will have to go if I run ML.
Then, astonishingly, Apple has stopped supporting Snow Leopard OS, it now being more than 2 removed from the last OS system released.
I bought this very powerful Mac mini with Snow Leopard installed two years ago last March and it is still covered by AppleCare until April, 2013. My 2 year old Intel abandoned by Mac. Wow! Microsoft, on the other hand give each and every OS upgrade release 10 years support, no conditions!
Even though I bought Pages.app when running Snow Leopard OS, now The App Store refuses me entry if it is Pages.app I want. This is true for me for about half the apps in the store. Thank goodness I don't need them.
I don't see how Apple can remain indifferent to the needs of over 50% of their customers, who don't use Lion or Mountain Lion, so I shall wait and see what happens. Trouble is, as long as they continue to rake huge profits from iPad, iPod and iPhone, and I agree all 3 are wonderful devices, Apple will hang tough concerning computers.
It is the Apple way or no way, meaning iOssifying one's computers. But Mountain Lion will change for the better just like MacBook Air did, so I shall wait and see.
As it is, I have an extra 1 TB external Drive and I'm using CCC far more extensively than I used to, which are good things, right?
So I remain happy and optimistic as to the future and shall stay put for now.
All the very best, Mike,
Gareth
On 2012-08-17, at 8:44 PM, Mike Bombich wrote:
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Support Staff 6 Posted by Mike Bombich on 19 Aug, 2012 02:07 AM
Hi Gareth:
We are 100% on the same page. I can't even get CCC into the App Store...
Why isn't CCC on the Mac App Store?
I'm glad that the "truth" isn't lost on everyone...
Mike
7 Posted by gilli2 on 19 Aug, 2012 04:10 PM
Mike,
I have just finished a few early morning chores and thought I would check the email.
Unbelievable!
I am truly speechless and don't know how to respond. Needless to say I am also horrified and you continue to have my unswerving support. If there is anything I can do in this to help do get in touch.
My friend, Robin Zhang [Zhang Qi] is a programmer and engineer, developer and a few other things. He is extremely bright. I believe I mentioned that he has JetPhoto Studio and JetPhoto Server, and received 4 stars out of 5 from C/NET. I could go on but if it is ML or JetPhoto, then I shall choose JetPhoto every time.
Same with CCC. I shall choose CCC over ML. And to think that I was on the verge of downloading ML into my 2nd external 1TB Drive, thinking, "If there are problems I can always isolate ML on the particular volume partitioned on the 2nd external Drive."
After your news, Mike, that is not going to happen.
I just wish there was an alternative I could go to, but I must admit, I am a firm believer that Apple makes the best hardware and software. It is the Company and its policies that have become untenable.
I bet you and my friend Robin are not the only ones being hit by these unwholesome policies. Pity we couldn't all get under the same umbrella and show Apple the error of its ways.
I am one big supporter and fan of you and CCC, Mike, and I am sure I am not the only one. Don't forget, if I can do anything to help, sing out.
Gareth
On 2012-08-18, at 7:07 PM, Mike Bombich wrote:
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8 Posted by Scott on 07 Sep, 2012 09:20 PM
Nice discussion fellas. Thoughtful and brutally honest.
I have a need to salvage use of older, but still powerful and useful applications that now will not run on my brand new MBP-retina. I'd like to continue using them, but it looks like I'll have to buy a second laptop..... unless there is a dual OS solution?
My question: Can I somehow use Parallels or Fusion to create a virtual machine or partition in which I can run Snow Leopard? Should I buy and partition an external drive?
Advice?
9 Posted by gilli2 on 08 Sep, 2012 03:08 AM
Hi Scott,
I have never used Parallels or Fusion, so I can't be of any help on that one, sorry.
I have just read my email. I didn't realize I had rambled on so much. Just skim through and take out of it what you think you are interested in. Some of the facts I have given are important though, like having FireWire ports or using the right system on Disk Utility to partition your new external drive, and so on.
However, I do understand how one gets "connected" to a particular app. or two. I notice with all Mac users, including me, we develop a liking for a particular app "just the way it is". We can accomplish mighty things with it, but don't mess with it, OK? That's exactly how I feel about JetPhoto Studio, a 3rd party photo editor client. It is not recognized on ML, but runs perfectly on SL and I can do all I want to do using it.
I believe many of the changes created by upgraded the Operating System are just trying out new ideas. Nothing wrong with that, but why get rid of the existing, NOT old, stuff? That's what's happened.
Same with iPhoto. I upgraded to the latest and wow, I was one unhappy camper. It was a whole new language and from what I could make out, it didn't advance me one iota. I had to use Time machine to return to the great version of iPhoto I was using before I upgraded as it seemed to vanish from Apple's web site!
Apple makes it very, very difficult to go back if you have moved forward. Read the blogs and you'll see I'm right.
"Old Apps for Mac OS X" website is a great place to visit. <http://mac.oldapps.com/>. This website got me back to the version of Safari that I wanted after mistakenly upgrading.
We have to make our computers run the way we want, not the way Apple wants. :- )
Your question, Scott, here's what I suggest.
If you buy an external hard drive you need one that is about 400 GB. Shopping around gets you some good deals, but make sure your new external hard drive has at least one FireWire 800 port. Those that support FireWire 800 usually have two such ports. Some disks (about 500-1000 GB) are much cheaper, but when you look more closely you see they are missing ports for FireWire 800.
If you go over some of what Mike suggests when he addressed my problem, I think you will find he suggests that figure also as being acceptable.
When you run Mountain Lion from your External Hard Drive you need at least FireWire 800. If you go for USB 3, most Macs don't yet support it and it will run like USB 2. For an OS X like ML you need at least FireWire 800. FireWire 400 is way too slow also.
There is this Thunderbolt, which is supposed to be great, but, alas, I don't know any more about it than what I read and what I read is that it is dramatically faster than FireWire 800. But I can only say make sure your computer and External Drive support Thunderbolt.
Subscribe to "About.com - Macs - Newsletter" and check out back issues re doing a clean install of ML on an external drive. The moderator is Tom Nelson <http://macs.about.com/bio/Tom-Nelson-38931.htm>. Read his what he says about downloading Mountain Lion and the choices available and the things to look out for.
There are two great people on the internet who help others, Mike Bombich is one and Tom Nelson is the other. They deal with slightly different things, but they are both fantastic as far as I am concerned. I don't know how I would manage with out CCC, that's for sure.
I have two external drives, each 1 TB. One is sufficient for your needs and, like I said, it needn't be more than about 400 GB, unless you have plans for backing up from SL on your laptop onto the new external drive.
Mike pointed out to me that it is a bad idea to have a backup going to the same disk as the OS your backing up from is on, OR, to backup to the same disk as the one that you are backing up to from SL. Here is how I get around that:
I back up Snow Leopard using Time Machine to a volume on the Hitachi External Drive. The Hitachi was partitioned using the Apple Partition Map APM system, which is for PPC computers, but is is okay to backup an intel Mac to an APM partitioned disk if you don't want to boot from the backup. I also backup my laptop, which is a PPC iBook running Leopard, using CCC to clone and backup. I can boot my laptop from this disk using Boot Manager.
I backup Mountain Lion, which is installed on the Hitachi, but I don't boot it from that disk, I select it on my computer using System Preferences/Startup Disk and it runs on my intel Core 2 duo Mac mini. I don't need to have a bootable version, because I prevented the ML installer from disappearing after install and copied it to the desktop. Then I burned the ML OS X installer onto a 16 GB Flask Stick. It works fine. I also burned the ML OS X onto an 8 GB DVD. So I have ML without having to ask Apple to re download.
They probably won't re download it if they think it is installed.
There is one HUGE problem. Twice I stopped downloading ML in the mistaken belief that it was not downloading.
The first thing you do after paying your $19.50 is to realize that the download will take at least 2 hours. To SEE the progress the download is making click "Purchases" at the top of the App Store page. You will see the download progress bar.
Downloading is not installing.
The install will take at least one more hour. Then you have to update to 10.8.1, which might take longer to start than you think. I tried to update, knowing 10.8.1 was already released, but I had a notice saying I was up to date. So I restarted the computer while running ML and then when the restart was complete I received a notice asking if I wanted to update to 10.8.1. Happy, happy!
Then, after update, you MUST do something with the copy of OS X 10.8 which is sitting on your desktop. I am assuming you did a clean install on an external drive. If you just allow ML to download, it will download into your Applications folder and if you go along with that,, your Snow leopard is GONE and half your apps with it. To add insult to injury, the ML installer just vanishes, never to be seen again.
I did a clean install on an external drive and followed Tom Nelson's instructions and had OS X 10.8 sitting on my desktop.
Unbeknownst to me, it manipulated itself into the computer's dock, which was running SL !!! My computer became paranoid and with a split personality and funny things started happening.
I first realized that when several of my apps went belly-up, like Pages.app and Bento. I didn't know what was going on as by now almost six hours had gone by since starting, that includes those two false starts. I was having serious misgivings. Anyway I got it out of the dock and dragged the copy on the desktop into an empty volume on the Hitachi External Drive, and then trashed everything associated with Mountain Lion on my computer. I disconnected the two external drives first to make sure I didn't screw up any further.
Now all is well in Paradise and there is lovely music and grass skirts, the whole ten yards! :- )
I have had no troubles since, but when downloading, go to the App Store and click on "Purchases" at the top of the page. You will see the download progress bar in action and it tells you how much time is left before downloading is complete. If I had known that I would have not stopped the download twice. Usually the progress bar appears on the desktop, but this one stays in the App Store window, almost out of sight at the top under "My Purchases".
If you have read everything I have said, then there is no reason for you to end up frustrated like I was. :- )
I had to fiddle about between the GUID Partition Table system of partitioning and the Apple Partition Map system, because I had intel Macs and PPC Macs, but if your Mac is Intel and you don't want to involve another computer (like I did) then just make sure you create your volumes on your external disk using the GUID Partition Table method in Disk Utility. I also erased the external disk using "Zero Out Data" to be on the safe side.
Be warned, everything takes a lot of time, and I mean a lot.
When you are downloading Mountain Lion it will download into your Applications folder. You will wonder what is going on. You won't see any progress bar or anything. Well, go to the App Store, you should be there already, and go to the top of the page
So I want to keep SL and if it is going to be used more than ML, it just makes sense that it stays on my Mac mini and ML gets installed on an external drive. I use /System Preferences/Startup Disk/ on my to select which drive.
I have rambled on and on and I do apologize, Scott. But if I can help any more, just ask and Good Luck! I am sure I have made mistakes, so I apologize for those too in advance. ☺ ☺ ☺
Gareth
On 2012-09-07, at 2:20 PM, Scott wrote:
> **** PLEASE REPLY ABOVE THIS LINE ****
> **** Any part of your response that is below this line will be discarded ****
> ==================================================
> From: Scott (Another Carbon Copy Cloner user)
> Subject: Running Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion on the same computer, but on different drives.
>
> Nice discussion fellas. Thoughtful and brutally honest.
> I have a need to salvage use of older, but still powerful and useful applications that now will not run on my brand new MBP-retina. I'd like to continue using them, but it looks like I'll have to buy a second laptop..... unless there is a dual OS solution?
>
> My question: Can I somehow use Parallels or Fusion to create a virtual machine or partition in which I can run Snow Leopard? Should I buy and partition an external drive?
> Advice?
>
>
> View this discussion at our support site online: http://help.bombich.com/discussions/problems/3425-running-snow-leopard-and-mountain-lion-on-the-same-computer-but-on-different-drives
>
>
>
Mike Bombich closed this discussion on 28 Sep, 2012 01:28 AM.